what do you expect from the shitty R3 cash grab?

moozooh said:

Which issues in particular are you referring to?

That said, R3 isn't immune to similar issues, and isn't immune to bad writing regardless of the issues (Akito didn't have them—that didn't help). But more on that later.

It would be quite the stretch to call this experimentation considering it was a part of an established popular franchise, dealt with the same concepts, and even shared several key characters. It even shared a lot of generic similarities with Gundam OVA storylines. The whole thing was pretty much as generic and unoriginal as they get.

Although I won't argue that some people just wanted more of their favorite Lelouch at all costs, but the general argument seemed more to be that the show lacked interesting characters, period.

Well, I, for one, prefer endings that are deserved, which requires an emotional curve set up throughout the entire series.

Lelouch's power corrupted his well-intentioned soul and made him fully commit to the ideology of "ends justify the means" much like his father. It lead him past the point of no return. Having him survive at the end is a mockery of his character, R1's/R2's overarching plot, and the audience.

I'm not mad about it. It's just an exceedingly cheap way to make money without making any decent effort. I don't condone that even for parody purposes because I still like seeing some writing effort in my parodies.

You've touched upon the main point of contention. R3's writing will very likely be worse than R2 and definitely worse than R1 because the plot legacy and the burden of expectations heavily restrict literary freedom.

Now they will have to come up with a new motivation for him that he didn't originally have, thus preventing the existence of a grounded conflict from the get go. This is something you won't be able to change regardless of the openness of mind, and it's what I've been talking about when I said it would be a tall order to maintain writing quality above R2.

I agree there's risk involved in resurrecting an essentially finished story. However, in cases such as these the studio/producers are clearly betting on the safety net of the existing fanbase, which is kinda low and irresponsible.

I'd rather the studios took risk creating new shows instead of milking the old ones. The amount of sequels that were outright better than the originals is absolutely negligible, as I'm sure you're well aware. And the only reason bad sequels are still made is because the audience is willing to gobble whatever is thrown at them instead of taking a vocal stance (even if it means voting with their wallet).

Which shows are you referring to?

Thank you for the thought-out response!

Also, wow, some people seriously think the studio actually took all the 9 years since R2 to work on R3? And that's somehow supposed to ensure its quality? Yeah, right. Nobody does that for a TV series. Also, taking ample time doesn't necessarily lead to a good product (looking at you, Diablo 3).

jgomezg said:


There were unplanned time slot changes, leading to story modifications and cuts after already having written the "episode 26" script. This was during the gap between both seasons. That's why R2 doesn't begin right after the cliffhanger ending and why early episodes felt like a repeat of season one, among other related effects that would take too long to list. There's a few interviews and information about the topic available elsewhere.



Not immune, you are right, but those specific issues are unlikely to happen and they were fairly important. Why? Because this is effectively a whole separate production process. A new plot will begin (and conclude, whether through a movie or TV show). Regarding the writing in particular, there's really no way to guarantee anything in advance. Akito's issues were often related to making certain creative decisions that didn't really match audience expectations and the ongoing fallout from all the production delays.



It was the first expansion of an already concluded work. Every idea under the sun is unoriginal, at heart, but generic status is more subjective. I'd tend to disagree there, because there were some interesting elements that aren't usually discussed when the show comes up, though they did keep some parallels to other Sunrise production. Not that such things are bad, either way.

But my point it was a risky expansion rather than a safe one. Not doing what the loudest fans literally wanted to see, at least not for that project, does count as an experiment from the company's point of view. The "key characters" in question were not even present at the beginning and they played too small of a role, including having limited screen presence.



People did expect to see more overtly charismatic and proactive characters, I'll give you that. I just don't think this type of story needed that, artistically or thematically speaking.



I'd say the curve is there, if you look closely. Akito being eventually reformed through interactions with Leila/other human beings and becoming less nihilist were always part of a suggested possibility. I'd also have to say the lives of the cast were generally messed up and sucky, so for me the ultimate outcome was just giving them a light at the end of the tunnel. They can't change the world, that's Lelouch's task, but they can escape into the realm of normalcy.



I don't think he'll literally be the same person ever again after going through with ZR, that much is hard to imagine. If they manage to acknowledge that he has changed due to the events of the TV show and make his new situation a possible consequence of dealing with factors he didn't initially expect, I could see them turning this concern into a potential strength.

Thus your view is a possible outlook, but I won't even try to discuss any detailed characterization issues at length. Or at least not before we actually have solid information about what happened to him after the ending of R2 and, more importantly, why he's been literally or figuratively resurrected (other than for out-of-universe reasons, of course).



Well, I don't think we can judge their "efforts" at this point, in either sense. It's not even clear if they're even using the "cart driver" theory or going in another direction.



It restricts a simple progression, but not all options. They might fail, but they might not. I don't think that is a particularly obligatory outcome. There are valid ideas available for continuing the story that, even if they might initially disappoint folks who have unrealistic expectations, could already be formally superior to R2 spending time re-doing early S1 content for about six or seven episodes.



Life goes on. History goes on. Personal motivations do not need to be static. In fact, they should arguably become more dynamic whenever a new story brings back old characters into the mix.

Lelouch is probably not going to be a rebel against Britannia anymore. That might be no longer applicable, strictly speaking, and he may not even assume the mantle of Zero. They could refer to the consequences, whether intended or not, of the new status quo that Lelouch set in motion and make use of the resulting conflicts. Something more personal might need to happen too, but at that point I'd be writing fanfiction in order to suggest anything concrete.

In any event, I think they could already be keeping the writing above that R2 level by simply going straight to the point and not having him assume the same position.



It's a double-edged sword. How do you feel about Madoka Rebellion, I wonder? Some fans hate that movie, but others would say it took the story in an interesting direction. To some extent, this also goes for the Rebuild of Eva films (the third one, most of all),



I do think it's often far more interesting to try and watch completely new projects. That much we can agree with. Pragmatically speaking though, sometimes you need to appeal to the fanbase in order to keep the lights on inside the studio. If Sunrise weren't adapting Gundam the Origin, a retelling of an incredibly old story with built-in popularity, they might not have the resources (or willpower) to afford taking more risks in the future.

As for Geass itself, I'd say there's a chance the sequel would be "good enough" even if not up to whatever standards people might unrealistically want to place upon it. Probably not better than season one, but I do think better than R2 is not too unlikely to be the case.



Off the top of my head...there's things like Valvrave, Cross Ange, Sacred Seven and Buddy Complex. Probably more if I were to try and look up data to make a full list.



You're welcome. Disagreements aside, I thought your post was interesting too.



I'd certainly doubt they kept up such a constant effort in advance, but it's likely they've been informally throwing around at least a couple of ideas or storming up concepts inside their brains during spare time, while working on other productions or just upon talking about Code Geass with their friends and co-workers.

We don't know what was the "real" official start of this project, from a purely behind-the-scenes perspective, in order to make any solid estimates about its pre-announcement timeline. That sort of information does tend to end up in interviews and commentary tracks after the fact though. The original Code Geass began its earliest planning stages close to the end of Planetes.

jgomezg said:
There were unplanned time slot changes, leading to story modifications and cuts after already having written the "episode 26" script. This was during the gap between both seasons. That's why R2 doesn't begin right after the cliffhanger ending and why early episodes felt like a repeat of season one, among other related effects that would take too long to list. There's a few interviews and information about the topic available elsewhere.

jgomezg said:
there were some interesting elements that aren't usually discussed when the show comes up

jgomezg said:
But my point it was a risky expansion rather than a safe one.

jgomezg said:
People did expect to see more overtly charismatic and proactive characters, I'll give you that. I just don't think this type of story needed that, artistically or thematically speaking.

jgomezg said:
I'd say the curve is there, if you look closely. Akito being eventually reformed through interactions with Leila/other human beings and becoming less nihilist were always part of a suggested possibility.

jgomezg said:
I don't think he'll literally be the same person ever again after going through with ZR, that much is hard to imagine. If they manage to acknowledge that he has changed due to the events of the TV show and make his new situation a possible consequence of dealing with factors he didn't initially expect, I could see them turning this concern into a potential strength.

[...]

Life goes on. History goes on. Personal motivations do not need to be static. In fact, they should arguably become more dynamic whenever a new story brings back old characters into the mix.

Lelouch is probably not going to be a rebel against Britannia anymore. That might be no longer applicable, strictly speaking, and he may not even assume the mantle of Zero. They could refer to the consequences, whether intended or not, of the new status quo that Lelouch set in motion and make use of the resulting conflicts. Something more personal might need to happen too, but at that point I'd be writing fanfiction in order to suggest anything concrete.

jgomezg said:

Well, I don't think we can judge their "efforts" at this point, in either sense. It's not even clear if they're even using the "cart driver" theory or going in another direction.

jgomezg said:
How do you feel about Madoka Rebellion, I wonder? Some fans hate that movie, but others would say it took the story in an interesting direction. To some extent, this also goes for the Rebuild of Eva films (the third one, most of all)

jgomezg said:
Pragmatically speaking though, sometimes you need to appeal to the fanbase in order to keep the lights on inside the studio. If Sunrise weren't adapting Gundam the Origin, a retelling of an incredibly old story with built-in popularity, they might not have the resources (or willpower) to afford taking more risks in the future.

jgomezg said:
Off the top of my head...there's things like Valvrave, Cross Ange, Sacred Seven and Buddy Complex.

jgomezg said:
The original Code Geass began its earliest planning stages close to the end of Planetes.

moozooh said:
Actually, when I bring up poor writing, I don't mean the early-season stuff—I didn't mind it too much, honestly. The whole season (except the very ending, which was clever and well-executed) was permeated with various writing and pacing problems, but I'd say the lowest point was around episodes 7–13 or something. I seriously considered dropping the show at that point as it just kept piling on pointless, unrealistic bullshit.

Story modifications aside, there have been generic writing issues such as the intelligence-insulting approach to almost any stand-off (which were way too often resolved via either deus ex machina or the infuriating "I'll pretend I'm surprised, but I was in control all along!"—compare this to actually well-written stand-offs such as in LotGH)

the strategy-disintegrating regular introduction of ridiculous technological advancements that pretty much instantly change the overall balance of forces (this is definitely a bad Gundam influence; it was done several times in R2 and was quite appalling every time)

the overabundance of Geass users, and the general propensity for repeating what was probably the most insulting aspect of R1 for me: the forced drama—such as when there's a slight looming possibility that something might go wrong, the characters will do their damnedest to ensure that exact resolution so that more drama could happen (Euphemia, I'm looking at you). I'm not sure any of this was a result of production issues considering most of it was present in smaller quantities R1 as well, and they just outright doubled-down on the bad things in R2.

Such as?

What would be the safe one, R3?

When I say interesting I don't necessarily mean "overtly charismatic and proactive". I mean being complex and relatable—like real people, you know. Akito is an boring edgelord who, aside from his good looks and fighting ability, has zero charm (in-universe or otherwise). Leila has all the originality and charisma of a wet doorknob just as well. They're completely uninteresting main characters.

For instance, the whole gypsy village arc felt like a total waste of time because of this, as such excursions only make sense when the characters have a good chemistry and are entertaining to watch in their off-time, which they aren't, being non-characters.

You're absolutely correct that the foundations of said curve are there, but they have nothing to support because I haven't been given any reason to care about Akito—a boring edgelord with no personality nor a relatable origin story. It's like watching the reformation of a sick, garbage-stealing raccoon into a normal, healthy raccoon.

I wouldn't go so far as to calling it a strength. It would still be very much a sequel-specific cliché, and not an exceptionally good one at that. I mean it's hardly a strength when the most obvious way of continuation is also virtually the only sensible one, and thus demands praise on the grounds of not being utter bullshit. That's the literary restrictions doing their dirty right there, and trying to come up with something more intricate and clever that still makes sense in continuity and doesn't break any characters is an uphill battle that I'm not sure they'll be able to handle.

If R3's premise boils down to Lelouch's efforts having been in vain and the world plunging into war once again (which is frankly weird considering the epilogue scenes), and him going, "well, shucks, guess they can't do a damn thing without me!" that'll be the drop trigger for me.

I believe one of the difficulties with expanding the Code Geass universe (much like, say, Death Note's) is that a show filled this heavily with strong personalities and personal conflicts won't take a random antagonist. The antagonist needs to be well-established in-universe, and they need to have a strong enough personal connection to Lelouch to draw him out of the woodworks. It needs to be obvious for us and for Lelouch that this person can only be opposed by Lelouch himself, and there need to be strong reasons for that.

Honestly, I'm not sure what gives you faith that they'll be able to handle this well. You seem to be deferring to a wait-and-see approach, but if you think about it carefully, what do you think is the chance of it being a more worthy addition to the canon compared to the lack thereof?

That line was in regard to Nunnaly in Wonderland which you excused as a parody. Like I said, it was an exceedingly low-effort parody.

Madoka Rebellion is a gorgeous fanservice movie (literally—something done to appease the fanbase) salvaged by the unconventional twist ending. I don't think the series required it at all, but the ending does give it a reason to live if only as an alternate path in a VN or something. That being said, the first half of the movie is still as ridiculously pointless as it is ridiculously beautiful. It could have been cut almost completely without losing anything of value, story-wise.

It's trying to subvert the expectations, ultimately pulling the rug from under them—that goal has certainly been achieved imo—and make them reflect upon the overall message, which is, and always has been, to grow up and get a life.

It seems I was more the audience of the original series as it proved to be a cathartic experience for me (I've rewatched EoE alone something like eight or nine times—it's my favorite anime movie ever), but I wouldn't say the Rebuilds aren't enjoyable. They just require a different, more metatextual approach.

On this note, aren't Gundams super efficient in terms of money? It seems like there's no shortage of demand for them, and all the recent series/OVAs have been received pretty well (though I've only personally seen Unicorn; Thunderbolt is next in the queue, and for The Origin I will wait until its completion before I watch).

Oh wow, okay. I have never even considered watching these, so you definitely got a point there (then again, I'm picky).

Besides, it's no Game of Thrones nor Lord of the Rings—there's nothing to spend years on, writing-wise. A lot of the scenes and plot twists in R2 in particular seemed like they were written in a few hours upon taking a good toke.

Ksteven said:
Guys you are missing the point... ANY anime it's a Cash Grab. Anime studios doesn't make anime for just fun.

richard360 said:
By lelouch is back i dont care if they mean like a cameo (Akito style) or just a bloody flash back.

All i want is a bloody Britannian civil war, there's no way the nobles would just roll over and let the black knights boss them around.
It might have taken some time but they definitely would have been able to build up a fighting force.

The Zero Requiem sounded cool on paper but there's no way that shit would have worked for long.
Unlike what the requiem was based on (WW2), where the world's hate was focused on one bad guy/ideology and its defeat resulted in peace, and they followed up by nerfing the country.

in Code Geass' case Britannia was actually the winner of the world war, they still owned 3/5th of the world, and they didn't get nerfed
the only thing that happened was a change in power from a "Dictator" to perhaps the most gentle person on earth.

There's no way nobles are gonna let such a chance slip to "MAKE BRITANNIA GREAT AGAIN !!!!"

Fundog said:

What was wrong with the Madoka movie?

postblitz said:
What an absolute meme thread.
Studio $unrise don't make cash "grabs". They are the ca$h.

People who didn't believe Lelouch turned into R2 are so much in denial and frustration that they will shit on this series as much as possible because they were wrong, even though all the signs were there.

Illumine said:
I am really curious but i think it will turn out to be a huge dissapointment.

johnyjohny said:
Me too, also why destroy the beautiful ending they gave it in S2. One of the best anime endings imo, can be thrown straight in the garbage can. But pathetic hipsters these days won't care and just swallow anything anime makers sprinkle on there faces like the simple sluts they are.

ReaperCreeper said:
I hope they kill him again.

Bowie said:
When you can't handle other users opinions on a series. 👏👏👏👏

SkullProX said:


Keep watching the shitty jojo series :)

Bowie said:
Thanks, keep being immature and salty over someone else's opinion over a Japanese cartoon. :)

Nvortex said:

I don't think your opinion is what is problematic here. It just seems pointless to even consider watching R3 is you didn't like R1/2. The majority of people who watched CG enjoyed it and lets face it, R3 is likely not going to be as good. So why set yourself up for more disappointment on a series that you don't even like?

fimbu1vetr said:

Edit: R3 should just be Allora Gale's story Dauntless. Lelouch is discovered by Clovis before he starts his whole rebellion and tries to take down Britannia as a general in their army. https://www.fanfiction.net/s/6175861/1/Dauntless

It would not suck =D

TPL said:



Also hell yes for Allora Gale's Dauntless being R3. That fic is the thing dreams are made of.